Feast upon the Word Blog

A blog focused on LDS scriptures and teaching

BOM Lessons 16-19: Open thread

Posted by Robert C. on May 23, 2008

We’ve been slacking this month regarding notes for the Sunday school lessons. So here’s an open thread to discuss anything from lessons 16-19 covering Mosiah 4-24. Hopefully others here will write posts on these lessons later, but until then, here’s a thread for sharing thoughts, insights, or questions from this lesson. (Again, if you’d like to write a post for a lesson, please email us at FeastBlog999@gmail.com, without the 999’s.)

Also, here is a link to the wiki that provides relevant commentary pages and Sunday school notes for these lessons (incl. Jim F.’s notes at T&S).

8 Responses to “BOM Lessons 16-19: Open thread”

  1. Robert C. said

    (Oops, I just remembered and found Joe’s post on Sunday school lesson #16 here, on Mosiah 4-6—my excuse is that Joe didn’t give it the right category so I overlooked it….)

  2. robf said

    I taught Lesson 18 last week–Mosiah 12-17. It was an interesting class, because one sister had a real problem with the idea of God threatening to “utterly destroy” the people of Noah. With a Catholic background, she really resisted the idea of a God who smites people. Indeed, Abinadi’s prophecy in Mosiah 12 does challenge the notion of a geriatric and eternally patient Heavenly Father, who is willing to wait patiently while we continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

    Most class members seemed to see this prophecy not as a promise of the LORD to destroy people, but to just withhold his protection from their enemies or the elements. But I’m not sure. Its a toughie!

    We also talked about beautiful feet on the mountain. We should really spend some more time talking about this. We talked about temples and ordinances involving feet. Very interesting.

    We barely had enough time to finish up with a mention of the deep stuff in Mosiah 15–how Christ is the Father and the Son. Now that’s something I still can’t quite wrap my head around after all these years. I know what Joseph Fielding Smith and others have said, but not sure we still fully get it.

    At any rate, having a sister really upset in the class got me really thinking hard. Both that the prophecy indicates how high the stakes really are, while we mostly seem to treat the gospel lightly. Also, how Sunday School can really throw somebody off. I tend to trust that the Spirit will guide us and we’ll have a lesson that will edify everyone. But if somebody really loses it there, that’s pretty disturbing!

    And then a record number of people came up afterwards to say what a great lesson it was. Again disturbing, as I don’t know if they are just being entertained, or if we are really getting what we need out of the lesson. Hard to know!

    Not sure how to handle all this, but for sure in ward council afterwards we talked about getting our Gospel Principles Sunday School class up and going again in a bigger way so we can have a different type of Sunday School experience going on for those who might want to go at a different speed.

    Just when I was getting “comfortable” with the way the teaching and classes were going in the ward…

  3. Robert C. said

    Yes, robf, I think you’re right to be nervous about students being both edified and flustered by the scriptures—in fact, I think each of us needs to experience with the scriptures and the Gospel both being flustered(/humbled) and edified(/exalted), and preferably in that order!

  4. Robert C. said

    I tend to forget what exactly is going on with the various peoples and records in Mosiah, so let me see if I have this right (sorry I don’t have time to look up and provide all the references):


    The stone with engravings spoken of in Omni 1:20 and the records that the people of Limhi found were both written by the Jaredites (the stone by Coriantumr, the last survivor of the Jaredites, and the records by authors we don’t know, so they were probably compiled by someone before Moroni—not Mormon—compiled them?). Coriantumr nearly died, but the Mulekites found him before he died (Omni 1:21). Mosiah translated both of these records. Also, the Jaredite record is the same record referred to as the twenty-four plates—right?

    Peoples and lands

    Mosiah (the first), on the Lord’s warning, left the Land of Nephi for the land of Zarahemla (Omni 1:13). We have no knowledge of any Nephites who might’ve stayed in the Land of Nephi. Mosiah found the Mulekites there in Zarahemla and the Mulekites became Nephites.

    After one failed attempt (Omini 1:27), Zeniff left with a “considerable number” (Omni 1:28) to the Land of Nephi, and that’s where his son, Noah, became a wicked king and then Limhi, Noah’s son, was found by Ammon (the first, not the later Ammon who was the son of Mosiah). Also, Alma left for the forest (b/c of Abinadi) with a small band and then rejoined the people in Zarahemla—the same Alma that became the first chief judge and high priest.

    Hmmm, those are the main plot lines I can think of—am I missing anything major, or do I have something wrong?

  5. JWL said

    For teachers planning on discussing Abinadi’s references to Jesus as the Father and the Son, the 1916 statement from the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve on the use of the term “Father” in referring to Jesus could be helpful. See:


    (I hope someone more skilled than I can make that link useable.)

  6. NathanG said

    I like JWL’s article that she linked to. It’s also in an appendix or chapter note in Jesus the Christ (with chapter 3 or 4).

    The verses that follow the statement of the Father and the Son are helpful (at least they were helpful while I was on my mission, which means I was probably way off base, or at least very shallow in my thinking).

    The subsequent verses talk about how Jesus is the father because of the spirit and the son becuase of the flesh and thus the son becomes subject to the father. So this passage seems to deal more with the dual nature of any person (flesh and spirit) than a combined being of God the Father and God the Son, it just happens that Christ’s spirit is Jehovah, who is God, so because of the spirit, he is the father or God (and here the article linked above is helpful in discussion of multiple ways that Christ is the father).

    So maybe this will force somebody into saying something really intelligent and insightful on the subject because I fell this is still a simple view of the verses and there is lots more to be learned.

  7. NathanG said

    I had to go back and read Mosiah 12 to see what’s up because I couldn’t remember a threat of destruction.

    So, Abinadi’s first visit he said, if you don’t repent then you will be brought into captivity by your enemies. Two years later the people have not repented and Abinadi goes back and says that now they will be brought into captivity (because they didn’t heed the first warning), but if even after captivity they don’t repent they will be destroyed in various ways described. He even says that if they are destroyed a record will be left behind (don’t know if this relates more to the whole Nephite nation in general who ultimately don’t repent and are destroyed and now we have their record, or if Zeniff’s and Limhi’s record is what was being referred to). Either way, both Alma’s group of people and Limhi’s people are brought into captivity and fulfill the first part of Abinadi’s second prophecy. However, both groups repent and are not destroyed, but delivered from captivity (although comparing both groups and the conditions of their captivity, how they bear their conditions, and how they are delivered is interesting.)

    So it seems that God was being merciful and kind in that he allowed them to choose to repent or not, but put a consequence with not repenting. When they didn’t repent the first time, he then promises the captivity and warns of destruction. If they are not delivered from captivity, then they can only either remain in captivity or be destroyed. It wasn’t long after Abinadi was killed that an army came to attack Noah’s people, but here was already the beginning of a portion of the people coming around and turing against their king, maybe that army would have destroyed the people if there was no repentance.

    Of course, none of what I have said makes a difference for the sister who had a problem with this concept.

  8. robf said

    Some interesting thoughts this week in our discussion of Mosiah 18.

    Up until now in the history, the people have been identified as the people of Nephi, Zarahemla, Noah, etc. In Mosiah 18 Alma is setting up an alternative kingdom, which will be administered by the Church–the kingdom of God, and the people will be identified as the people of God.

    Also, he specifically instructs them not to contend with each other–very interesting as the whole history of the Zeniffite colony seems to be one of continual rounds of contention and violence, going back to the expedition prior to the founding of their kingdom–and continuing after the exodus of Alma’s people of God. Just check out how many time the word contention figures in the record of Zeniff.

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