Comments on: The Nephites were a failure…but when?

By: dallon j

dallon j — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 21:06:37 +0000

It wasn’t very gradual it happened in one generation, pretty fast compared to the rest of their history. The root cause was that certain people started wearing nicer clothes than others, and then they gave up the law of consecration (the fullness of the gospel). 4 nephi 24-25.

Then it was only a matter of time before denying the power of god because they started to lose it when they gave up the fullness. D&C 70:14

By: GaryH

GaryH — Sun, 23 Sep 2012 14:23:08 +0000

A specific verse for my suggestion could be Hel 2:13. It’s interesting that Mormon credits Gadianton with the overthrow of the Nephite people, despite the fact that they have a 300+ period of outstanding peace between Gadianton and the end at Cumorah.

The peak of their society seems to be the period of democratic rule by judges. The interesting expression “stand fast in this liberty wherewith ye have been made free” was first voiced by Alma Sr in Mosiah 23:13, and repeated by Helaman and Capt. Moroni. It refers to freedom from despotic rule as well as from the bondage of sin, appearing even in the NT in this context (see Gal 5:1).

Although there was opposition to this social form prior to Gadianton, particularly in the form of the king-men, this opposition was regularly put down. Both the civil and the spiritual freedom were ultimately lost as a result of secret combinations, which commenced with Gadianton and Kishkumen, and which were repeated on later occasions.

By: JKC

JKC — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 18:43:09 +0000

Sorry, I didn’t meant to abandon the discussion. I forgot that I had made this comment. One interesting way to look at unity as the major theme of the Book of Mormon’s view of societal redemption (as opposed to its view of individual redemption, which is, obviously, the primary focus of the book), is to look at how often and in what context Mormon uses the word “dissension.” It always seems to come up when something bad is happening, especially in the later chapters of Alma and in Helaman. Dissension is often blamed for the fact that satan gets a foothold. Dissension appears to be a useful foil to unity.

By: jacob

jacob — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 15:29:15 +0000

I feel the same way Ji, especially after i read this:
http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2011/03/06/where-are-all-the-feminist-interpreters-of-the-book-of-mormon/

I wish we had more clues in 4th Nephi to explain the Lehites gradual descent into pride, inequality, and then all out war.

By: ji

ji — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 15:07:47 +0000

I have never thought of the Nephites of a model for us to follow. I see the Book of Mormon as one that can help individuals come to Christ and save individual souls — but I never look at it as offering a model of community or government.

By: Mark - chapter and verse game

Mark - chapter and verse game — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:25:07 +0000

It also makes me think of how we often will look back at some other time in our recent history and say, whistfully, “I wish it were like it was back then…” But then, if one were to look closely at “back then”, one would see that it really wasn’t all that great “back then” either.

By: BrianJ

BrianJ — Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:22:05 +0000

Your overall conclusion “that the Nephites are [never] in their history an appropriate model” is very similar to the one I reached, though I appreciate the way you’ve articulated it here. Specifically, the point that the Nephites from day one—yes, I mean that it originated with Nephi—promote their own superiority. (A prelude to the Rameumptom?) I also appreciate how you view the supposed curse. That is a much more comprehensive and helpful way to look at that problem than I have ever seen before.

One of the positive examples in the Book of Mormon is the conversion of the Lamanites via the efforts of Ammon. As I pondered my question, I wondered if there was a difference of success when promoting peace (a la Ammon) versus engaging in war (a la Moroni). But maybe you present a better way to look at the issue: it’s not about peace/war, it’s about unity. In this view, Ammon was not “successful” because he forsook the sword, but because he chose to view the Lamanites as his equal. Indeed, he suggested he might become Lamanite if they would let him. Moreover, he certainly did not forsake the sword, and a certain number of unwilling amputees will attest!

I could go on with more examples, but I will just say for now that I see how your approach is very helpful.

I think it is important in this discussion to reiterate that I am not casting judgment on any Nephite leader. We refer to Nephi, Alma, Moroni, et al so casually as “righteous” without considering that even a kind assessment is itself a judgment. Who are we to judge? But okay, let’s call them “righteous”; that does not mean they were perfect nor does it mean they were always right.

By: JKC

JKC — Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:23:19 +0000

I personally think it began very early on, shortly after Lehi’s death and the separation from the Lamanites, with the Nephites adopting an attitude of superiority over the Lamanites. According to Jacob, it was around this time that the Nephites began to use the perceived greater wickedness of the Lamanites as an excuse or deflection from their own sins. This is what led to the Nephites’ creation of the racist myth that God had cursed the Lamanites with dark skin (in my opinion—I don’t claim that the Book of Mormon says this, and I readily concede that Nephi and Jacob promoted this idea as fact). The examples of the ideal society almost always come with Mormon making a point of the fact that the rift between Nephites and Lamanites has been healed. 4 Nephi is the most obvious example (“no manner of -ites”), but I would also point to the conversion of the people of Ammon. Those same attitudes of cultural superiority (with a healthy does of racial superiority) led the Nephites to reject the preaching of Samuel, and even the righteous Nephites failed to take note of those prophecies—something that the Savior specifically makes a point of when he personally visits them.

Ultimately, I’m not sure that the Nephites are ever in their history an appropriate model for any modern society. Of course, that isn’t to say that there aren’t lessons to be learned, but drawing specific parallels between characters and groups from the Book of Mormon and modern factions and using that to say that we should therefore adopt the course of action the Nephites took against such characters, for example, is not going to be productive.

By: BrianJ

BrianJ — Tue, 21 Aug 2012 01:54:36 +0000

would any of you care to point to specific verses/concepts that support where you “drew the line”?

By: haycockm

haycockm — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:21:45 +0000

I’d say that the seeds of failure (ethnic, hierarchical, religious) were planted with the Nephite-Zarahemnite merger under Mosiah 1 – in other words, pre-Christ Nephite society was never a stable ideal.

By: prometheus

prometheus — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 01:26:30 +0000

Honestly, I don’t see any time in Nephite history as something to aspire to, apart from 4 Ne. Even King Benjamin had dissenters who wanted to return to the land of their first inheritance for an unspecified reason.

Also, as one reads, it seems that almost every chapter is a warning and a cry to repentance because the people are wicked, stiff necked, and rebellious.

By: GaryH

GaryH — Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:19:08 +0000

The Nephites had problems before, but it was after Gadianton that the Nephites began their decline.