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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Bitter&#8221; + &#8220;Cup&#8221;</title>
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	<description>A blog focused on LDS scriptures and teaching</description>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2007/08/05/bitter-cup/#comment-33168</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 21:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Saints can participate in the partaking of the bitter cup during the ordinance of the sacrament.  Of course it would necessitate &lt;a href=&quot;http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/tribal-worship-services/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;performing the ordinance tribally&lt;/a&gt; since the Church does not follow the model given by Jesus in 3 Nephi 18.

The length of the sacrament would be longer because it takes longer to eat bread and sip wine until your whole tribe is filled -- rather than a quick nibble on a morsel of bread and a quick slurp of water.  It is precisely this kind of extended meal in which the body and blood of Jesus is to remembered.  This elicits a much more profound effect on the mind than does our relatively quick Church sacraments.  

Further, the bitter cup of new wine -- i.e. red wine that has yet to have its tannins broken down by aging -- along with the warmth associated with drinking it connects connects a tribal group even stronger with Christ.

When we use water or even grape juice for our sacraments we can be too capable of gulping it down as it is sweet to the taste.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saints can participate in the partaking of the bitter cup during the ordinance of the sacrament.  Of course it would necessitate <a href="http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/tribal-worship-services/" rel="nofollow">performing the ordinance tribally</a> since the Church does not follow the model given by Jesus in 3 Nephi 18.</p>
<p>The length of the sacrament would be longer because it takes longer to eat bread and sip wine until your whole tribe is filled &#8212; rather than a quick nibble on a morsel of bread and a quick slurp of water.  It is precisely this kind of extended meal in which the body and blood of Jesus is to remembered.  This elicits a much more profound effect on the mind than does our relatively quick Church sacraments.  </p>
<p>Further, the bitter cup of new wine &#8212; i.e. red wine that has yet to have its tannins broken down by aging &#8212; along with the warmth associated with drinking it connects connects a tribal group even stronger with Christ.</p>
<p>When we use water or even grape juice for our sacraments we can be too capable of gulping it down as it is sweet to the taste.</p>
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		<title>By: BrianJ</title>
		<link>http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2007/08/05/bitter-cup/#comment-9104</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BrianJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Matthew: Well, I hope I didn&#039;t make it seem like I understand it all!

Robert C: Yes, I think there is a relationship between Group 3 and Group 8: while our cups are filling with iniquity, the Lord&#039;s being filled with wrath. I thought about expanding my search to include all references to drinking, wine, cups, etc., but quickly realized that would be too extensive. Thanks for the interesting imagery of Isa 28:1, though, which I think is quite relevant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew: Well, I hope I didn&#8217;t make it seem like I understand it all!</p>
<p>Robert C: Yes, I think there is a relationship between Group 3 and Group 8: while our cups are filling with iniquity, the Lord&#8217;s being filled with wrath. I thought about expanding my search to include all references to drinking, wine, cups, etc., but quickly realized that would be too extensive. Thanks for the interesting imagery of Isa 28:1, though, which I think is quite relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2007/08/05/bitter-cup/#comment-9100</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert C.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 00:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2007/08/05/bitter-cup/#comment-9100</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BrianJ, I think this is fascinating.  I was reading up on this a while ago in the &lt;i&gt;Theological Dictionary of the New Testament&lt;/i&gt; and in the 2nd volume on Jeremiah in the &lt;i&gt;Word Biblical Commentary&lt;/i&gt; series which has a nice excursus on &quot;the cup of wrath.&quot;  A couple quick thoughts for now:

I think the cup that is &quot;full&quot; of wrath in te D&amp;C is likely building on Rev 17:4 and Jer 51:7.

I was studying Isa 28:1ff at the wiki where drunkenness is described, and I think there is an interesting relationship between the cup as a symbol of religious celebration (you and I have talked about this before in reference to the sacrament) and that celebration/ritual becoming twisted by drunkenness---a twist that I think parallels idolatrous perversions (food offerings to idols are also commonly condemned...).  The &quot;impurities&quot; in Rev 17:4 may be getting at this too.

The TDNT also talks about a notion of a &quot;cup of fate&quot; in Rabbinic and other ancient writings, which also suggests I think an interesting connection between the cup of wrath due to sins and the cup of discipleship/atonement (in the sense that we are to &quot;bear our crosses&quot; which are a result of sin in the world, and we are told to bear our crosses patiently and even cheerfully, bringing us full circle to the celebratory imagery---makes my head spin thinking about all of this though!).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BrianJ, I think this is fascinating.  I was reading up on this a while ago in the <i>Theological Dictionary of the New Testament</i> and in the 2nd volume on Jeremiah in the <i>Word Biblical Commentary</i> series which has a nice excursus on &#8220;the cup of wrath.&#8221;  A couple quick thoughts for now:</p>
<p>I think the cup that is &#8220;full&#8221; of wrath in te D&amp;C is likely building on Rev 17:4 and Jer 51:7.</p>
<p>I was studying Isa 28:1ff at the wiki where drunkenness is described, and I think there is an interesting relationship between the cup as a symbol of religious celebration (you and I have talked about this before in reference to the sacrament) and that celebration/ritual becoming twisted by drunkenness&#8212;a twist that I think parallels idolatrous perversions (food offerings to idols are also commonly condemned&#8230;).  The &#8220;impurities&#8221; in Rev 17:4 may be getting at this too.</p>
<p>The TDNT also talks about a notion of a &#8220;cup of fate&#8221; in Rabbinic and other ancient writings, which also suggests I think an interesting connection between the cup of wrath due to sins and the cup of discipleship/atonement (in the sense that we are to &#8220;bear our crosses&#8221; which are a result of sin in the world, and we are told to bear our crosses patiently and even cheerfully, bringing us full circle to the celebratory imagery&#8212;makes my head spin thinking about all of this though!).</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2007/08/05/bitter-cup/#comment-9016</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 23:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2007/08/05/bitter-cup/#comment-9016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think there&#039;s more here than I understand. Thanks for the insights.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#8217;s more here than I understand. Thanks for the insights.</p>
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